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Challenging Other Teams

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Challenging Other Teams

Post by Donknottz on Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:47 pm

There has been some discussion about playing against other teams on our forum and on others. I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are about the subject so let me clarify a bit. What I mean is that we meet up on a field and we play as CVA vs another team (like NUAC) in team based games. Not the joint games where both teams are mixed together like they have been in the past. Is that something you would want to do? What are you hesitant about? Are there any accommodations that would need to be in place for that to happen (especially considering rule sets)? What have your experiences been in the past? Would you rather just keep to our smaller games. Take a moment and type up something of value because this discussion will help us figure out a schedule for the summer.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by Ninja Scott on Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:03 pm

We have a lot of younger guys with basic weapons. I think that most of the formal teams use more of their older and more experienced players for their roster. While it would be hysterical to send our young'ins out front on a doomed charge, or to scout for snipers and watch them get shot up by the opposition. When it comes down to it though, that is a pretty lame way to play the sport.

Furthermore, I think that some formal teams take things way to seriously for our little band to have fun with. I would rather keep things as the are and just invite people or groups to play with us or join them on their games.

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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by Panzerfaust on Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:04 pm

Our FPS limits and rules are pretty different from theirs, I think that's my main concern. I don't mind mixing teams with NUAC for OPs, scenarios, etc, but pitting CVA vs NUAC wouldn't go too well, imo. Until we're able to come to some kind of a compromise with our two rulesets or something, I don't think I'm interested in the team competition aspect right now. I think coming to terms with our rules has to happen first.

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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by EPICdieHARD on Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:58 pm

Ninja Scott wrote:We have a lot of younger guys with basic weapons. I think that most of the formal teams use more of their older and more experienced players for their roster. While it would be hysterical to send our young'ins out front on a doomed charge, or to scout for snipers and watch them get shot up by the opposition. When it comes down to it though, that is a pretty lame way to play the sport.

i hate that Mad ... i think that that's really stupid when people send out the so called "young'ins" to do the dirty work, that just shows that you are a wuss (no offense to you scott, you are awesome), in my opinion. Now if you are in a "squad" with one young person and you say move up, that's different. Thats why when i play with someone and they are like 20+ years old, and im 14 and they tell me to run out there and see if there is anybody there in the open im like, "screw that", cause i know ill just be out of the game, there are better ways of checking for guys. And about the CVA vs. Other team, i think it could be fun to try, someday.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by Donknottz on Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:07 pm

Epic, I think that Scott was joking and I don't think I have ever seen him do that.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by EPICdieHARD on Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:09 pm

ya i know, i didn't mean him, i know he doesn't do that, i meant just in general, cause it has happened to me before. Its just one of my pet peeves i guess, i wasn't talking bout Scott or anything though, so your fine.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by reidc on Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:02 pm

I think that playing with other teams would definitely expand our possibilities. I arrived at numerous games last year with only 3-6 attending. While still fun, it tends to limit what can be done. I've tried to address this with the modification to both CVA and NUAC rule sets for Operation DW2. I have decreased their max fps by 15 and increased ours by 10. I also kept the 25 ft rule since it is way to easy at 20 ft to cause damage since so many don't wear any type of face protection.
Based on what I am seeing with the discussions on Airsoftica.com it may well be that we see a new rule set for them revamped to a more uniform team goal. The one they are using has been in effect for a while and the majority of their officers are largely silent on the subject so far.
We can also invite teams up with the proviso that they play by CVA rules for the event. This is the same thing we do when we attend one of theirs.

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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by EPICdieHARD on Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:07 pm

sounds good to me, i was curious about what was going to happen to the rules for Operation DW2.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by Panzerfaust on Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:13 pm

reidc wrote:I think that playing with other teams would definitely expand our possibilities. I arrived at numerous games last year with only 3-6 attending. While still fun, it tends to limit what can be done. I've tried to address this with the modification to both CVA and NUAC rule sets for Operation DW2. I have decreased their max fps by 15 and increased ours by 10. I also kept the 25 ft rule since it is way to easy at 20 ft to cause damage since so many don't wear any type of face protection.
Based on what I am seeing with the discussions on Airsoftica.com it may well be that we see a new rule set for them revamped to a more uniform team goal. The one they are using has been in effect for a while and the majority of their officers are largely silent on the subject so far.
We can also invite teams up with the proviso that they play by CVA rules for the event. This is the same thing we do when we attend one of theirs.

I'm interested in seeing what happens with their revamped rules. If we needed to adjust our local community rules to line up with the other teams in the area, is this something we'd be willing to do? I'm to the point where I'd just like to see one standardized ruleset for the entire region, just for some sort of cohesiveness among the players in northern UT.

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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by EPICdieHARD on Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:24 pm

AMEN!!! Andrew, AMEN, that would be the day, ONE rule set for airsoft in northern UT. Very Happy
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by reidc on Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:52 pm

And a chicken in every pot!

I think that they will retain the higher FPS. Their CQB rules have already modified to a lower fps and some provisions for semi-auto only. I would recommend that everyone read the rule set at airsoftica.com so that each player can conduct a valid comparison to the rules we use here in CVA. In the end, it will just come down to personal choice. Just make sure the choice is informed and everyone will be fine with it.
As far as other teams, Tac4 has an invite to DW2 that I issued through weapon blender and I know NUAC is looking at meeting with Andy on Friday to discuss some team games.
The northern part of Utah is definitely moving to a more cohesive atmosphere, but, I don't know that there will ever be one unified rule set unless every one was willing to be subordinate to an officer corp of some sort that would formulate that rule set. I, personally, am currently against anything like that since I like the tone and timber of CVA as it is.

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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by TopJobAsphalt on Thu Feb 18, 2010 1:53 am

I agree with reid. I think it would open up alot of fun options. Im tired of playing with only 3-6 players. Thats why i joined CVA. If I want to play with 5 other guys I can do that in my back yard with my brothers and friends. I like the idea of the guest team plays by the host teams rules. If you dont like the rules of the other team, dont show up, and then they are motivated to be more accomidating.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by Sinister on Thu Feb 18, 2010 6:11 am

let me give you guys a NUAC perspective on the subject since I'm the one that originally proposed this. The basic idea was to get together about once every other month trading off between home and away games. whichever team is hosting the game uses their FPS rule set etc. i didn't notice that big of difference between your and ours. your min engagement for AEG is 25 feet, ours is 20. you have 0 restriction on pistol and shotgun, ours is 5 feet. we don't have a top limit on FPS, the min engagement distances just increase as FPS increases.

we might do one or two games where it's straight up CVA vs. NUAC but we are still going to have to balance teams etc. we would also play games with mixed teams. Friendly competition is all we're after here, I think it would also help promote unity within our own groups as well.

Think about it some more and let us know.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by reidc on Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:25 am

Sinister, I can safely say that I will be attending more NUAC games this year. I have the balaclava since I was ending up looking like a meth addict with a max fps of 400. The only real difference I would enjoy seeing on NUAC rules would be moving min. distance to 25ft for the hotter AEGs. But, for me, not that big a deal as long as no one is intentionally taking head shots and they practice proper trigger control.
It has been interesting to follow the current topics on airsoftica.com and I look forward to seeing where it ends up.
As more people chime in we'll get a better feel for where the rest of CVA stands.

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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by TopJobAsphalt on Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:05 am

I have one more thing to add. Obviously its not as much fun if you are overwhelmingly outgunned and loose every time, however I really enjoy having a disadvantage, either in manpower, low ground, or whatever, because it forces you to be creative in your tactics. That for me is what airsoft is all about. After mondays game one of the things I really want to do is assault the dam. It would be a huge challenge, but the enoyment would be equaly huge for me.

So I guess my point is that the teams dont always have to be perfectly even. It would build solidarity in our group to work together against someone else. It would also encourage us to come up with an overall plan instead of just seperating into groups and takin off into the brush. Maybe I just havent played with you guys enough and you guys have played enough that you already know what the others are thinking. I am still relatively new to the forum and recognize that my observations could be way off. I also recognize that the aspect I find most enjoyable in airsoft is not what others may enjoy most. So Im willing to go with whatever, just throwing out my thoughts.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by EPICdieHARD on Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:18 pm

i have to say, we could so a SICK WWII reenactment of D-Day with that mound/ dam thing up dry canyon.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by reidc on Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:26 pm

EPICdieHARD wrote:i have to say, we could so a SICK WWII reenactment of D-Day with that mound/ dam thing up dry canyon.

I you have to say it could you be a little more coherent?

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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by EPICdieHARD on Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:31 pm

well i just mean what TopJob said, we could do a cool attack/defend game with that wound/dam.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by reidc on Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:32 pm

Sigh...

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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by Donknottz on Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:42 pm

I too am interested in NUAC's rule changes. If they get anything set in stone please let us know if the changes. I'm glad I asked what everyone's opinion was before talking to other groups. Here are my thoughts on the subject. My main concerns deal with over competitiveness, safety, and keeping things fun.

Competition
Though some would say that competition can bring out the best of your abilities, it can also bring out your worst nature. I've seen a big plummet in sportsmanship once people start focusing on winning the game instead of just having a good time. This is a game of honesty and if my blood is pumping with the adrenaline of heated competition because my team is better than any other I might hesitate to call that hit that only grazed my elbow. Plus, "that dirty scum bucket group of misfits from Roy never call their shots either." If you feel you have been wronged in a game the next match that is played you will be more likely to falter in your values as an airsofter. "We would have won if that guy in the black vest would call his shots."

Safety
No matter what, every person on the field needs to be safe and feel that way. If I have been playing with a set of rules that I feel comfortable with and suddenly I am in a competition where things are different. Do I feel safe? Is that other guy really shooting 480 fps with a sniper and .3 gram bbs? Last time I played with them I got blasted 5 times before the guy let go of the trigger to hear me yelling "HIT"

Things that I would like put in place are:
Common rules : I think it would be best to side with the most conservative rule set. That way no one feels endangered by others you just might be inconvenienced by a longer distance than you are used too.

Judges: At least one person should be roaming the field from each team to act as a judge to watch for shots and act as a arbitrator during the match.

Small teams: Don't have the entire group on the field at once. 20 vs 20 can be fun, but it is less likely to be well balanced and it is much harder to manage. Select 8-10 guys from each team to represent your group. Make it so people have to earn their spot on the team through previous games played on your own or make it a reward for good attendance.

Ammo Restriction: We can sit in our bunker all day and shoot through half our ammo supply and you do the same. It is tactically sound to a certain extent, but usually we don't have all day to watch no one move around. This isn't WWI, it's airsoft. If you wanted to make it a true competition then putting some sort of ammo or magazine restriction on seems to make sense. Then you get into who has the better ability and not who has the better gun or brought the most ammo. (This one I am less concerned with. Some people that is how they play and if you limit them they don't want to play anymore. And it is hard to figure out where to draw the line. When has someone been holding down the trigger for too long. "It was just 30 seconds of cover fire while my team moved up on them.")

Fun
Ultimately we are all out there to be fun. Competitions can add an aspect of fun, but as soon as they stop being fun it is time for them to end. I'm all for having us do some good team vs team games. As soon as people stop having fun and get too concentrated on winning and being the best team I'm walking way. Even if it was the middle of a game and I realized it would be more fun to surrender and grab five guys to play a zombie game I am out of there. I think if we plan properly we can make it work, but all the planning in the world won't stop the jerk who is more concerned with getting the most kills and living out the video game dreams.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by Ninja Scott on Thu Feb 18, 2010 8:59 pm

Nicely put James.

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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by reidc on Thu Feb 18, 2010 9:36 pm

True, but again, everyone should read the appropriate rule set. I agree in concept with everything James said.

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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by TopJobAsphalt on Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:25 pm

I pretty much agree with you James. I never thought about the fact that when people get more competative the temptation to not call shots gets stronger.

I dont know if I agree completely with the small groups thing though. I think huge battles is one of the main advantages to playing with other teams. I have to admit things got a little more heated monday than I would have prefered, and maybe I'm being to optimistic in hoping things will get better instead of worse. Maybe if we are upfront and let everyone know that if they aren't good sports then we will have to restrict numbers.

James, you and several of the guys know alot more about large airsoft activities than I do, and I will support you in whatever happens. I really enjoyed mondays game, and I hope I can look forward to games with as many or more people in the future.

Ps. in my lesser experience the smaller games are the ones that take forever because you cant find each other : )
I like a fast moving game.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by Donknottz on Thu Feb 18, 2010 11:34 pm

I'm all for having us play a big game. I mainly offered the suggestions that might alleviate the potential problems. I think it would be good to try a larger game, but I have a feeling it would go longer than we wanted. One of the ideas that I thought about was to have a secondary game going on in a separate section of whatever field is being played on. As people get out they can join that game. This would help people be more willing to call their shots because they aren't just going to sit out when they are hit.

If people are aware of the problems and that others are watching for them like the judges and mainly their teammates. Most of the problems will go away on their own. People have to choose to make it a good fair game.
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Re: Challenging Other Teams

Post by EPICdieHARD on Fri Feb 19, 2010 12:18 am

Donknottz wrote: One of the ideas that I thought about was to have a secondary game going on in a separate section of whatever field is being played on. As people get out they can join that game. This would help people be more willing to call their shots because they aren't just going to sit out when they are hit.

That is a GENIUS idea, i love it. that would way fun to try sometime.
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