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Proposed modification

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Proposed modification

Post by reidc on Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:25 pm

I have spent a bit of time looking at the market and I am seeing a trend toward faster fps guns both for American production and as retailer 'standard' upgrade packages. With this in mind I propose an increase in FPS field limits to 450 fps for aeg application, and 650 fps for snipers. Having reviewed the post on sniper limits and giving it much thought I feel that the bolt action only, 1 shot per three seconds is too restrictive. There are a plethora of real steel semi-auto sniper rifles and a good sniper doesn't take 3 seconds to reacquire a target. Semi only, however, is reasonable for snipers. After all, on full auto, the second round will miss at any real range anyway.
The existing minimum engagement range of 25 ft can be extended to 35-40 to account for an increase in FPS.
Standing CQB rules would still apply.
I am, of course, interested in everyone's thoughts on the matter (hence the post).

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Panzerfaust on Fri Oct 17, 2008 7:58 pm

I understand the desire for range and accuracy, but the increased risk of substantial injury that comes with having full auto-capable AEG's on the field putting out 450fps is not worth it.

If the reason behind the proposed increase is indeed for greater range and accuracy both can be achieved without going beyond 400fps. That's another matter for another topic.

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Ninja Scott on Fri Oct 17, 2008 9:38 pm

Aye anything over 400 is well not to cool to get hit with for most people. I probably wouldn't care myself as I probably deserve a good shot or two. I would much rather have fun with more peeps than to kill people. Besides lower fps mean that you have to use your head and skills more. Not just sitting on the top of a hill lobbing rounds en-mass at frags.

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by reidc on Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:22 am

Hmmm....

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Donknottz on Sat Oct 18, 2008 1:20 pm

I also am on the side of keeping the FPS limit where it is at. Part of what I take into consideration is our group of players. We are pretty laid back and we're mostly interested in just playing. Because of this anybody can bring whatever weapon they want and play whatever style they want. Also there is no age limit. Your rough calloused skin is able to take a bit more of an impact than others. The problem with a good number of individuals in our group is the heavy fingers. It has gotten a lot better than it used to be, but we are still hearing a lot of fire being used to take down one individual. Getting hit multiple times is bad enough and adding another 50 FPS (or more since many aren't on the 400 line) would really be increasing the discomfort. Most of these shots are already at 30-40 feet away so increasing the distance isn't really a solution in my opinion.

It is unfortunate that companies think they are going to be getting better sales by having the highest number. But I think there is a thread about this anyway. As for the snipers, we aren't really playing according to realistic circumstances and the limits are there solely for safety and to keep them under control. I know some people who can count to 3 real fast because they don't want to lose their target, but having to take a short break keeps them calm and keeps their target from getting multiple stinging hits.

Here's a question for another thread. Now that we are becoming a bit more established do we want to move to a more realistic setup with a few limits on the amount of ammo in your clip and only shooting the way your gun would shoot in real life? It's a different style of play and it has its bonuses and setbacks. Personally I think we could do that on a specific event day if we wanted.
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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Ninja Scott on Sat Oct 18, 2008 6:27 pm

I'd love to throw down on some more realistic stuff. Barring that I just want to be fun.

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Delta on Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:07 am

It really all depends on the level of realism you want out of the game. A higher fps means that each shot would sting more hence giving you an increased level of battle anxiety. The military and LEO's train with Simunition which averages between 360 fps - 490 fps. I think that if we did opt to allow faster guns we should mandate the use of full face masks or a good balcava with goggles. As long as everyone sticks to the proper safety gear, the only thing that would change would be the size of the welts.
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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Ninja Scott on Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:22 am

By realism I ment the use of low caps, Where one would have to reload during a game.

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by reidc on Sun Oct 19, 2008 10:50 am

I've already gone to 67 round mid-caps. It does tend to make you more conscious of ammo usage. That alone will help limit the spray and pray mentality.

Definitely need to make sure safety gear keeps up with fps. I went out yesterday and shot my standard Wal-Mart safety glasses with an SR 25 shooting .25 bbs at 425 fps. I ended up with 1 smudge on the glasses out of 10 hits.

My biggest concern is to continue to accommodate the largest number of people without a whole string of requirements. The fact of the matter is that higher fps guns sell, which means any group/organization that wants to continue to attract participants will need to address the issue sooner or later. There are definitely ways to do so which will allow the greatest number of players possible while still addressing safety concerns. My point in starting this discussion is to reach that position while the higher FPS market is still relatively small.

I can think of a number of possibilities but would like others input on what they think. i.e. Hard Core League.

P.S. Scott, I agree with what you said about skill. That is one of the reasons I don't mind using my M4 against the higher fps guns. My skill vs their standoff!! The results are in...I win!!!!!!

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Panzerfaust on Sun Oct 19, 2008 12:13 pm

reidc wrote:I've already gone to 67 round mid-caps. It does tend to make you more conscious of ammo usage. That alone will help limit the spray and pray mentality.

Here Here! I sold off my hi-caps as well to fund a stock of 'standard-cap' 67 round mags. Evike was selling a 10 pack for $60 Very Happy . Now I need more pouches.

Without a doubt anzi rated glasses and goggles can withstand a hit from 450+ with .20g, most can take a hit from a .22LR. My face is however not anzi rated. I'm not worried about the raised welts that normally come with our current ruleset, but I've already had skin removed from my face on two separate occasions from rifles firing above the safety limits, one was 4 rounds in rapid succession to the lower lip (very nice grouping). A balaclava is going to have to be pretty thick to prevent that. Thick balaclavas mean my safety glasses are going to fog up, and paintball masks are for gay paintballers.

The increased FPS question is not a new topic. In one of the older communities I habitually haunt it's continually touched on and questioned. More recently the ones asking the question are replied to with reduced patience, and some vehemence. They've maintained a 400fps cap on AEG's for years (unofficially from 1999-2005 and more officially from 05-on) because it's what safe and it's what works.

EXAMPLES
here we see a change proposed by the site admin to promote a higher standard of realism relative to the platform propelling the round:
http://www.airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?t=3724&start=0

The end result of that 7 pages of a butting heads:
http://www.airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?t=4501
Limits did not change.

Someone notices stock aeg's are being sold with higher FPS springs and asks the question (this one gets really ugly/entertaining):
http://www.airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?t=5896&start=0
There are a few "no holds barred" organizations in other countries who play with really high FPS limits. You might try asking them about how many injuries they've had and compare with what we generally have here. Honestly, I don't know the risk if increasing the standard FPS limit to something like... say... 600 for all AEGs. I took the advice of those organizations who existed before I did, SOCAL, Cimmerians, Lion Claws; and I used what they use. I even recall emailing some California groups and the Cimmerians about how many injuries they had, if any, and what safety precautions to consider.

And again, although this one remained civil:
http://www.airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?t=18622


As for the LE training simunitions, the energy transferred by a 3.5 grain (.23g) projectile being fired at 200 m/s (650fps) is 5 joules. For comparison an airsoft gun propelling a .20g BB at 400fps is 1.49 joules. That sim round is gonna hurt. It's a great training tool, and incentive not to get shot. I play airsoft for fun, it's a hobby. If there's the possibility I'm gonna get penetrated by a projectile, on game start I'm taking off up that mountainside and ya'll are NEVER gonna see me again Very Happy . Good gosh, not to mention the level of trust I'd have to have in order to even step on the field with someone poppin a real firearm at me with what they're supposed to have loaded with sims. You've heard about those training accidents that occur when a finely tuned SWAT officer accidentally slips a steel core in with his wax rounds. Anyway that's a moot point.

for your viewing pleasure now are some fun airsoft injuries:


I have my doubts about all of them occuring with 400fps .20's. 400fps .25's perhaps. Some may have come from the Philippines where they straight up don't have an FPS limit. It's ok though, there's plenty to asians to replace the ones bent and broken by their pursuit of fun! Very Happy

I can think of a number of possibilities but would like others input on what they think. i.e. Hard Core League.
A hardcore league isn't something I'd be interested in, not surprisingly I'm sure. I think it'd serve to split up and reduce numbers in a growing community.

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by fuzzybeard on Sun Oct 19, 2008 1:47 pm

"If you're new, I wouldn't take this advice to heart, 80% of Airsoft in the United States is under 400 fps with .20g."

"the users responsibility to make sure their replica adheres to the standards the community sets. if the fps gets raised now by 25 or 30 fps, it sets a precedent in the future to raise it again. six months from now someone can go "well, we raised it by only 25fps back then, whats another 25fps?". six months later, the same thing."

These are some things that i pulled off of the links that Panzerfaust laid out there. I don't think that we should change the limits at all. I think that we will lose some very important players if we do and what will keep us from changing it in the future if we change it now.

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Delta on Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:34 pm

Awesome pictures pirat My vote is to stay with 400 fps as a limit and for those who decide to buy hotter guns, they can always buy fps limiters such as http://www.airsoftpost.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_143&products_id=29489
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Re: Proposed modification

Post by yogibear on Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:48 pm

I VOTE IS TO STAY WITH 400FPS
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Re: Proposed modification

Post by yummytacos on Sun Oct 19, 2008 6:02 pm

same here!!!
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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Scarecrow on Sun Oct 19, 2008 7:17 pm

I vote to keep the limit! I have been hit by guns shooting over 400fps and I dont want it to become an every game thing.
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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Donknottz on Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:02 pm

I think Reid brings up another good point. New members to the group are going to be buying guns based upon reviews and might not look at our rules before they buy. Here's the thing, over 85% of our group is made up of our friends who we convinced to join and have a good time with us. If you have a friend who is getting started, help them make a wise purchase that fits the requirements. Also, if you have friends who are interested in playing but not necessarily with our group, you should probably still be giving them advice about the right kind of gear. It does concern me as well Reid, and I can see the points you are making and I am glad you are willing to bring it up and keep discussing it. That's why you are a good leader and a team captain. I think to help control the FPS limit we need to help our buddies make good decisions.

There are very few people who come across airsoft on their and decide that they are going to buy a $200+ gun shooting over 400 FPS. If they start on their own they usually start small, though there are a few who don't. So if we give good advice and have hard fast rules, we can reduce the problems before they start.
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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Divine4ngel on Mon Oct 20, 2008 12:11 am

I brought up the idea to my stepdad aka Reid, but only under the frustration over my
SR-25. My friend Robert who first bought it loved it and we used it many of times in dry canyon and no one said anything about it we just all talked about how cool it was so i decided to get one. When i finnaly did just a couple of weeks ago. This is brought up about how the Sr-25 hits too hard and i should down grade it. No one ever said anything about it i even said out on the field many times that i was gonna get one. I spent about 300$ on tha sucker. My HK 416 was broken and i needed a new gun, and now i cant use it not even as a sniper rifle. I myself have been hit by it under 50 ft it stings a little but it doesnt bother me. The only reason i proposed the idea to Reid is cuz it would allow all the guns from weapon blender which is where most of us buy our guns. After the problems with buying from outta state. I rarely buy anywhere else , and as new people so join our great squads i believe they too will buy from weapon blender. Now i might be a bit hard but thats cuz im willing to do anything if you guys wanna go out in armor and hardcore bb guns Lets do it! lol I just dont think this idea should just be shot down so fast i propose that every one invest like 30$ in masks and stop poking our heads just barely out to be shot and blindfiring. And i dont think weve had a serious injury like the ones in the pictures you put up and i dont want one to happen. I just think our rules are too strict especially the sniper ones. I mean bolt action only and only 1 shot per 3 seconds i mean even i can shoot faster than that with a bolt action rifle plus many sniper rifles in this age are semi and according to the sniper rifle rules my Sr-25 is not allowed nor a 50 cal . I think our rules are little too strict for this day and age

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Panzerfaust on Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:35 am

I'd be frustrated too if one gun over the limit was allowed for so long, and then mine wasn't. Hell, I'd be pissed. The problem is we weren't consistent with enforcing this earlier. Not having a field chronograph doesn't allow us to even question an AEG's fps if we suspect it may be over the rules.

Robert wasn't exactly up front about his SR-25 being over the limit. Thing is those guns should have never made it onto the field. I caught wind of them in side conversations at a game, and had to do some research on the SR's. The issue was allowed to slide for too long, and now more hot guns are showing up. Our rules have been in place since last summer. Should we adjust our rules for your rifles, or should you adjust your rifles for our rules?

Downgrade the spring, it'll cost you $12 at most if you buy a new one, and will bring your gun within the green. You could even clip a couple coils out of the spring to bring down the gun's power. I'd be happy to do it for you if you wanted, totally free of charge. It's not like you can't use the gun. There are options.

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by reidc on Mon Oct 20, 2008 7:42 pm

I want to thank everyone for all the input into this. For those who are interested the SR 25 Robert and Devin have will not accept a velocity reducer since the barrel end is not threaded. It was eye opening to learn that the limit is also tied to underwriting. Since I have never researched any of the rental fields that is a point I would never have considered. Andrew and James, I wonder if a short recap of the salient points raised here should be added to the Safety and Rules post along with a link to the pics Andrew tracked down. Or maybe a poll added to that post with everyone signing on so we have a record of their agreement.
For Devin and Robert I agree with Andrew. Laxity is the issue and I think it is once again time to see who wants to kick in for a team chrono. I have ten bucks for it this Saturday. I think, however, that the points of safety raised have convinced me that the limits are both well thought out and reasonable.
If Devin or Robert wish an anything goes game they can always post it and those who wish can, as always, attend.
See ya'll Saturday.

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Donknottz on Mon Oct 20, 2008 8:25 pm

I think it would be excellent to add some of the points raised to the bottom of the rules thread. When I get a moment i'll add some though the thread isn't locked so anyone can add, though in order to keep that thread clean I reserve the right to edit and tidy up as necessary. I added a poll to the top for everyone to agree too. A lot simpler than having to keep track of a bunch of waivers, though probably less legally binding. Smile On a side note, if rules are ever changed, it will clear the results of the poll and people will have to place their mark again.
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Re: Proposed modification

Post by reidc on Mon Oct 20, 2008 10:16 pm

Cool.

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Skearit on Tue Oct 21, 2008 1:26 pm

about the comparison with simunitions. I have a cop friend who has scars from where he took simunitions hits. I already have enough scars littered about my anatomy, I don't need more from airsoft.

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Ninja Scott on Thu Oct 23, 2008 12:41 pm

Might I suggest that this is a good time to ask for more donation to get a Higher Quality Chrono for CVA...?

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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Delta on Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:54 pm

I think that's a good idea. I'm willing to chip in $20 or so for a good chronometer.
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Re: Proposed modification

Post by Panzerfaust on Thu Oct 23, 2008 5:26 pm

yes, let's fire this up again. We're at $30 still for the chrono fund, donated by James, Doug and Brandon.

I've heard great things about the Madbull chronos, and someone was telling me that a dedicated CQC facility near them uses the Madbulls. That's endorsement enough for me.

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