Proposed modification

I have spent a bit of time looking at the market and I am seeing a trend toward faster fps guns both for American production and as retailer 'standard' upgrade packages. With this in mind I propose an increase in FPS field limits to 450 fps for aeg application, and 650 fps for snipers. Having reviewed the post on sniper limits and giving it much thought I feel that the bolt action only, 1 shot per three seconds is too restrictive. There are a plethora of real steel semi-auto sniper rifles and a good sniper doesn't take 3 seconds to reacquire a target. Semi only, however, is reasonable for snipers. After all, on full auto, the second round will miss at any real range anyway.
The existing minimum engagement range of 25 ft can be extended to 35-40 to account for an increase in FPS.
Standing CQB rules would still apply.
I am, of course, interested in everyone's thoughts on the matter (hence the post).

I understand the desire for range and accuracy, but the increased risk of substantial injury that comes with having full auto-capable AEG's on the field putting out 450fps is not worth it.

If the reason behind the proposed increase is indeed for greater range and accuracy both can be achieved without going beyond 400fps. That's another matter for another topic.

Aye anything over 400 is well not to cool to get hit with for most people. I probably wouldn't care myself as I probably deserve a good shot or two. I would much rather have fun with more peeps than to kill people. Besides lower fps mean that you have to use your head and skills more. Not just sitting on the top of a hill lobbing rounds en-mass at frags.

Hmmm....

I also am on the side of keeping the FPS limit where it is at. Part of what I take into consideration is our group of players. We are pretty laid back and we're mostly interested in just playing. Because of this anybody can bring whatever weapon they want and play whatever style they want. Also there is no age limit. Your rough calloused skin is able to take a bit more of an impact than others. The problem with a good number of individuals in our group is the heavy fingers. It has gotten a lot better than it used to be, but we are still hearing a lot of fire being used to take down one individual. Getting hit multiple times is bad enough and adding another 50 FPS (or more since many aren't on the 400 line) would really be increasing the discomfort. Most of these shots are already at 30-40 feet away so increasing the distance isn't really a solution in my opinion.

It is unfortunate that companies think they are going to be getting better sales by having the highest number. But I think there is a thread about this anyway. As for the snipers, we aren't really playing according to realistic circumstances and the limits are there solely for safety and to keep them under control. I know some people who can count to 3 real fast because they don't want to lose their target, but having to take a short break keeps them calm and keeps their target from getting multiple stinging hits.

Here's a question for another thread. Now that we are becoming a bit more established do we want to move to a more realistic setup with a few limits on the amount of ammo in your clip and only shooting the way your gun would shoot in real life? It's a different style of play and it has its bonuses and setbacks. Personally I think we could do that on a specific event day if we wanted.

I'd love to throw down on some more realistic stuff. Barring that I just want to be fun.

It really all depends on the level of realism you want out of the game. A higher fps means that each shot would sting more hence giving you an increased level of battle anxiety. The military and LEO's train with Simunition which averages between 360 fps - 490 fps. I think that if we did opt to allow faster guns we should mandate the use of full face masks or a good balcava with goggles. As long as everyone sticks to the proper safety gear, the only thing that would change would be the size of the welts.

By realism I ment the use of low caps, Where one would have to reload during a game.

I've already gone to 67 round mid-caps. It does tend to make you more conscious of ammo usage. That alone will help limit the spray and pray mentality.

Definitely need to make sure safety gear keeps up with fps. I went out yesterday and shot my standard Wal-Mart safety glasses with an SR 25 shooting .25 bbs at 425 fps. I ended up with 1 smudge on the glasses out of 10 hits.

My biggest concern is to continue to accommodate the largest number of people without a whole string of requirements. The fact of the matter is that higher fps guns sell, which means any group/organization that wants to continue to attract participants will need to address the issue sooner or later. There are definitely ways to do so which will allow the greatest number of players possible while still addressing safety concerns. My point in starting this discussion is to reach that position while the higher FPS market is still relatively small.

I can think of a number of possibilities but would like others input on what they think. i.e. Hard Core League.

P.S. Scott, I agree with what you said about skill. That is one of the reasons I don't mind using my M4 against the higher fps guns. My skill vs their standoff!! The results are in...I win!!!!!!

reidc wrote:I've already gone to 67 round mid-caps. It does tend to make you more conscious of ammo usage. That alone will help limit the spray and pray mentality.

Here Here! I sold off my hi-caps as well to fund a stock of 'standard-cap' 67 round mags. Evike was selling a 10 pack for $60 . Now I need more pouches.

Without a doubt anzi rated glasses and goggles can withstand a hit from 450+ with .20g, most can take a hit from a .22LR. My face is however not anzi rated. I'm not worried about the raised welts that normally come with our current ruleset, but I've already had skin removed from my face on two separate occasions from rifles firing above the safety limits, one was 4 rounds in rapid succession to the lower lip (very nice grouping). A balaclava is going to have to be pretty thick to prevent that. Thick balaclavas mean my safety glasses are going to fog up, and paintball masks are for gay paintballers.

The increased FPS question is not a new topic. In one of the older communities I habitually haunt it's continually touched on and questioned. More recently the ones asking the question are replied to with reduced patience, and some vehemence. They've maintained a 400fps cap on AEG's for years (unofficially from 1999-2005 and more officially from 05-on) because it's what safe and it's what works.

EXAMPLES
here we see a change proposed by the site admin to promote a higher standard of realism relative to the platform propelling the round:
http://www.airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?t=3724&start=0

The end result of that 7 pages of a butting heads:
http://www.airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?t=4501
Limits did not change.

Someone notices stock aeg's are being sold with higher FPS springs and asks the question (this one gets really ugly/entertaining):
http://www.airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?t=5896&start=0

There are a few "no holds barred" organizations in other countries who play with really high FPS limits. You might try asking them about how many injuries they've had and compare with what we generally have here. Honestly, I don't know the risk if increasing the standard FPS limit to something like... say... 600 for all AEGs. I took the advice of those organizations who existed before I did, SOCAL, Cimmerians, Lion Claws; and I used what they use. I even recall emailing some California groups and the Cimmerians about how many injuries they had, if any, and what safety precautions to consider.

And again, although this one remained civil:
http://www.airsoftpacific.com/viewtopic.php?t=18622


As for the LE training simunitions, the energy transferred by a 3.5 grain (.23g) projectile being fired at 200 m/s (650fps) is 5 joules. For comparison an airsoft gun propelling a .20g BB at 400fps is 1.49 joules. That sim round is gonna hurt. It's a great training tool, and incentive not to get shot. I play airsoft for fun, it's a hobby. If there's the possibility I'm gonna get penetrated by a projectile, on game start I'm taking off up that mountainside and ya'll are NEVER gonna see me again . Good gosh, not to mention the level of trust I'd have to have in order to even step on the field with someone poppin a real firearm at me with what they're supposed to have loaded with sims. You've heard about those training accidents that occur when a finely tuned SWAT officer accidentally slips a steel core in with his wax rounds. Anyway that's a moot point.

for your viewing pleasure now are some fun airsoft injuries:


I have my doubts about all of them occuring with 400fps .20's. 400fps .25's perhaps. Some may have come from the Philippines where they straight up don't have an FPS limit. It's ok though, there's plenty to asians to replace the ones bent and broken by their pursuit of fun!

I can think of a number of possibilities but would like others input on what they think. i.e. Hard Core League.

A hardcore league isn't something I'd be interested in, not surprisingly I'm sure. I think it'd serve to split up and reduce numbers in a growing community.

"If you're new, I wouldn't take this advice to heart, 80% of Airsoft in the United States is under 400 fps with .20g."

"the users responsibility to make sure their replica adheres to the standards the community sets. if the fps gets raised now by 25 or 30 fps, it sets a precedent in the future to raise it again. six months from now someone can go "well, we raised it by only 25fps back then, whats another 25fps?". six months later, the same thing."

These are some things that i pulled off of the links that Panzerfaust laid out there. I don't think that we should change the limits at all. I think that we will lose some very important players if we do and what will keep us from changing it in the future if we change it now.

Awesome pictures My vote is to stay with 400 fps as a limit and for those who decide to buy hotter guns, they can always buy fps limiters such as http://www.airsoftpost.com/product_info.php?cPath=28_143&products_id=29489

I VOTE IS TO STAY WITH 400FPS

same here!!!

I vote to keep the limit! I have been hit by guns shooting over 400fps and I dont want it to become an every game thing.